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NOTE: This is literally a copy/paste. I just posted the same thing in the "Official" Discord.
You know, a year ago I found out my wife had cancer.
The last person I spoke to here and in the (now old) forums at the time - as a new/old programmer returning after years - was Fellipe Heitor. I had a half-baked UI running in InForm and he was helping me so much (everyone had).
My wife is better now, and I come back to find that horrible things have happened. I will not be speaking with Fellipe today, it would seem. What a shame. I have no dog in this current fight, so let me share what this looks like from the outside looking in:
I see division.
I see good developers not only not talking to each other - but talking poorly about one another. Yet you are all titans to we newcomers.
Legends of the community such as you all should not be divided. I was so *excited* to come back to programming after a year-long, intense battle only to find something I cared about has been decimated with disagreement.
Keybone here and Spriggsy there. Cory on one side, Steve on another? ***WHAT?*** Do you have *any idea* how much I have learned from you folks?!?!?! And now you're hardly on **speaking** terms? Nonsense!
It has always wanted to make a game in QB64, and was happily following Terry Ritchie's tutorial when we got the worst news. Now I can't. Now I have to **choose** which QB64 to use?!?! Not in the "FOSS" sense, but in the "*pick a side*" sense? The two QB64s have already diverged in different directions! Soon libraries won't even be compatible, and then we **really **lose.
The reason anyone is upset to begin with is you're all *passionate*. The dark side of passion can sometimes create divisions (as is clearly the case).
The worst part is that **none** of you did this. **All** of you have done nothing but fight to **SAVE **QB64. And yes, I've been on the PE forums too scratching my head trying to figure out what the hell is going on. I will make a similar appeal there as soon as I post this here.
Don't make me choose. Life is short. Unite QB64 again!
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Instead of pointing at differences, lets point at commonality: We all love QB64!
b = b + ...
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(10-31-2022, 04:50 PM)bplus Wrote: Instead of pointing at differences, lets point at commonality: We all love QB64!
Hear hear! Hence the call to action! Focus not on what divides, but on what connects!
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We're open source, and more than happy to welcome anyone to come join us in developing The Phoenix Edition -- even "those other guys"... LOL! The main issue appears to be one of philosophy -- we here tend to follow the old way of doing things, while Cory and his crew want to embrace "modern concepts". Our focus is forums, discord, and community -- they focus on a code of conduct. We focus on restoring the wiki -- they focus on copying it and converting it to github *.md files. We believe that the old rules, methods, and development model was good enough to keep the project alive and viable for the last dozen years or so -- they believe things need an overhaul to "modern github standards"....
And that, more or less, is why we do as we do and they do as they do. We're Old Skool(tm) while they're the New Bloods(tm), and our core philosophies just don't mesh well together. 
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(10-31-2022, 05:52 PM)SMcNeill Wrote: We're open source, and more than happy to welcome anyone to come join us in developing The Phoenix Edition -- even "those other guys"... LOL! The main issue appears to be one of philosophy -- we here tend to follow the old way of doing things, while Cory and his crew want to embrace "modern concepts". Our focus is forums, discord, and community -- they focus on a code of conduct. We focus on restoring the wiki -- they focus on copying it and converting it to github *.md files. We believe that the old rules, methods, and development model was good enough to keep the project alive and viable for the last dozen years or so -- they believe things need an overhaul to "modern github standards"....
And that, more or less, is why we do as we do and they do as they do. We're Old Skool(tm) while they're the New Bloods(tm), and our core philosophies just don't mesh well together.
And that's the saddest part. I see the value of BOTH. I see advantage in being able to reach the Old School and New audiences. I myself fall somewhere in the middle. I daresay this may well apply to a large portion of potential users.
Restore the wiki...AND have it available in Github Markdown. Is it extra work? Sure, but there are adherents of both philosophies who are clearly willing to make the effort and the information is made more widely available. That is an advantage, I would say.
And one of the nice things about this hobby/profession/craft is its flexibility. It is entirely possible to have a fully modernized repo with full CI and automation...while also having a simple ZIP hosted on a page. Again...you merely cater to the widest possible audience when MORE choice is offered.
Have your two camps, sure. But unite them under one banner. You both want QB64 to succeed.
I suppose, at the end of the day, Horace was right: Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. I'm not naive enough to believe that all conflicts for all time in all places will immediately and perpetually resolved in this way...but there is far more to gain from cooperation than competition. Competitive ingenuity only applies to the shark-infested waters of capitalistic revenue-focused companies, groups, and projects. The goal here isn't money (though of course it is necessary). The goal is QB64 as a living, vibrant, modern tool that folks old and new can use and enjoy and make cool, interesting, and useful things. That's MY goal, at least...and it'd be really cool to be able to harness the impressive combined might of the developers who are contributing to BOTH projects.
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10-31-2022, 06:33 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-31-2022, 06:37 PM by SpriggsySpriggs.)
Hello, bearheathen. Glad to hear your wife is doing better.
As for the split up and differences, this came about mostly from outsiders moving in and taking complete ownership of the project. Fellippe and Luke handed over the project to someone that no one else in the community had even heard of (Ryan Carter). The guy was trying to corporatize the entire thing and change things drastically. He barely knew how to program and didn't know really anything about QB64 itself. The forum had great difficulty staying online due to his server having issues. He implemented extremely strict rules for conduct on the Discord. He also made new copyright rules for QB64 that said that anything shared using the forums would be owned by the QB64 project. People started deleting their posts and he went on a banning frenzy. We eventually booted him out. With that, he shut down the whole project and then archived it all. We managed to recover what we could. Luke stood up a server to host the old forum and turned over the Discord to us. Matt, Samuel, Steve, and RhoSigma all stepped up to take over the project. I was, for a time, the Discord server admin. I wish I had never been. I had to crack down on the bunch of knuckleheads and numbskulls who were trying to stir up crap. Then, Cory came along. We thought he had our best interest at heart. But then it ended up that he was basically the same as Ryan Carter. Just wanted to be in control of a project that he knew nothing about. Cory found some folks who would be easily riled and were thin-skinned. They practically demanded that I oust a particular member of our Discord group (a well-known and excellent programmer) all because of some perceived slights from this member. When I defended him, they all ganged up on me to let me know that I was horrible for blaming the victim and standing up for the bully. These were all grown men, at least 40 years of age. And Cory was leading them all to make these complaints. Then, Cory and some other ne'er-do-wells got together and kept trying to slander Steve and company. Kept accusing our group of all sorts of nonsense, such as intentionally leaving out contribution history. I do not speak for the QB64pe project but in my personal opinion, I have no use for Cory and his ilk.
I went with the "phoenix" project because I knew Steve and RhoSigma and that they are good programmers. By this time, I had also gotten acquainted with Matt and Samuel. I feel confident that they know what they're doing and that they actually give a damn about QB64.
Tread on those who tread on you
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(10-31-2022, 06:33 PM)Spriggsy Wrote: ...
Firstly, thank you for the well-wishes, and secondly thank you for your considered reply.
I got the gist of the basic story from the Lunduke article (after I was scratching my head trying to find QB64 and why it had a phoenix on it here, but the one over there didn't, etc. - which is a problem for anyone coming in).
Full transparency: I am speaking to folks on the "Official" side too.
What I am hearing is there is plenty of bad blood to go around. I am listening to both sides, and both have grievances. That is the nature of conflict.
What I do NOT hear is how any of it helps the newcomer in any discernible way. Let me repeat: I had to HUNT for QB64. I had to contend with multiple versions and which one to pick and why and whether or not one is better, etc.
In the end, this is what my hard drive looks like.
This. Is. Wrong.
I should have ONE folder.
I don't care about drama and logos and forums and Discords and all the rest of it. QB64 felt like a chunk of home and nostalgia....and now it feels like a warzone.
There has GOT to be a way to fix it. As a technician and developer, I firmly believe that nothing is so broken that it cannot be fixed. What would it take to bring the geniuses on both sides back to the same table?
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I'm glad to hear your wife is in remission.
Welcome to the forum.
Pete
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(10-31-2022, 07:02 PM)Pete Wrote: I'm glad to hear your wife is in remission.
Welcome to the forum.
Pete
Thank you, Pete. I see from my browsing you're still the same 'ol scalliwag as always. haha. Glad to see it!
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10-31-2022, 07:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-31-2022, 07:19 PM by SpriggsySpriggs.)
@bearheathen
I have no issues with you talking to folks on the other side. I honestly don't. They have valuable input to give as well and are trying to keep up what they can. That on its own is admirable. I just have issues with particular individuals. As for choosing which QB64 to download, for me it is an easy choice. Phoenix. Mainly because it is updated extremely often with performance enhancements, features, etc. Matt is a software developer by profession and knows the ins and outs of proper code management. Steve is an old-timer (not just physically!) and knows how the project works since he was here at the beginning. RhoSigma makes insanely useful libraries that leverage QB64 and C++ as well as the wiki parser. Samuel is making great updates to the code with fantastic new features. I would make commits but I'm selfish and only make updates for Windows features 
Regardless of which QB64 flavor you pick, I'm glad you're here and I wish you all the best in your endeavors.
Tread on those who tread on you
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