How Many Years Until QB64ers are CALL OBSOLETE?

[Pete]

I'm predicting 6, and what I mean by obsolete is picture the day some kid can use Chat GBT, Open AI, whatever, to make a working 8,000 line QB64 program! I make quite a few of those, and it only takes me a couple of months, but imagine having one made in a couple of nano-seconds.  

It really got me thinking today how AI will influence my desire to code. The best, or at least, first thing that jumped out of my head was, "I hope the Rams beat the Bears, tomorrow" Okay, NFL playoffs aside... the second thing that jumped out of my head was, "I'd feel like an idiot taking a few months to code something that I could get a machine to make for me, just as soon as I asked for it." So I guess what comes next is planning on what addition to builds I've made I'd like to see expanded, meaning I'd have to put my software engineers cap on and start making much more sophisticated and integrated aps. I mean OOP was sort of the baby steps in this direction, but I was not an OOP enthusiast. Why? Well because OOP is too rigid and not creative enough for me. AI, however, can and will be much more flexible and especially creativity as expanding its creativity is what will allow it to grow. So I guess I'll think about embracing AI as a tool in the near future, but when it becomes my boss, I think I'll file for my retirement. Steve, get my gold Apple Watch ready!

What do you guys think?

Pete

[bert22306]

I think that AI is just the next step. I think that probably, when computer programming began to be a "thing," a lot of OFs were claiming that math would be obsolete. "Because computers will be doing all the math."

AI requires training, before it can do anything. In a sense, that's what computer programming also does, in a lower layer. So just like every single other innovation ever since the Industrial Revolution, (a) this AI innovation will require a new set of tech skills, and mostly (b) all of the technically-challenged art history majors, as well as all the OFs, will be bemoaning that all the jobs will be taken away.

So far, instead, the opposite has been true. Innovations in technology have created new job types. Otherwise, no doubt, I would be shoveling manure in some farm, for a living.

(So okay, you'll be able to write some programs in seconds. But for programs to solve problems that haven't been considered yet, it will take people to come up with the proper architectures, abstractions, whatever. The repetitive aspects of today's computer programming will likely disappear.)

[Sprezzo]

I don't suppose that the language itself becomes obsolete. That's a fallacy like judging a tree by its roots and not its fruit. I'd say look from the other end - which is to ask what are the actual QB64 products coming out................? None. QB64pe became redundant to QBJS months ago and never achieved the household name status of FreeBASIC. This isn't to say our local snippet kings and library queens aren't still having their day. It's just that these efforts never amount to anything. Someone please change my mind. 

We do have an occasional collaboration on discord; I've always hunted for properly-made code that can sit aside works of similar caliber but these are very few and very far between. Don't hate the game, hate the players, ya feel?

[Dimster]

I imagine therefore I am not yet a robot. Seems to me Pete you have a very creative mind and imagination. At the moment none of the AI's developed so far can dream. They need you to complete them (aught to be a sequel to that movie). The best AI needs someone with imagination to tell it what the program needs to do and all the parameters. And again, at the moment, its just a tool which in the hands of programmers with devious imaginations takes the clothes off people. I think the path we are on could very well see the creation of myriad programs - bakers and cooks, street sweeper, office workers, the youth of the world, the elderly of the world, famers, lawyers, insurance and the medical profession - everyone can now direct an AI to make a program that is tailored to their needs. At the moment we are in the sweet spot and we should be working on a program that helps us keep our clothes on.

[SMcNeill]

Honestly, the issue is the required ROI (Return Of Investment).

I personally wouldn't try to drag a new programmer into learning any version of BASIC nowadays.  It's honestly a dead-end street.  Can you imagine writing that down on any modern resume and submitting it?   

Jim Bob  -- Programmed in BASIC for 3 years.  Has participated in multiple game jams using BASIC as the game platform.

The issue isn't that BASIC isn't useful.  It's not that it can't do stuff.  It's that there was a phase where the other coders all ganged up and said, "OMG!! BASIC IS EVIL!!!!"  And the public perception of basic made it sound like an auto anti-programming language.   "If you've learned BASIC, you're ruined from ever learning anything else."   Anybody else remember hearing these words?

Office managers and bosses who know no better also heard these words.  It set up warning flags in their minds and soon they began to quietly shuffle resumes with BASIC written proudly upon them to the back of the pile.  Those seeking employment learned this and just started to omit the skill set from their resume.  Once BASIC stopped shipping with Windows as a default programming language for the masses, it became almost taboo for workplaces.

That culture has lingered.  There's no work environment in the world that is looking for BASIC programmers, that I know of -- no matter which dialect of basic one wants to discuss.  For a youngster, who has never programmed a single thing in their life, I really wouldn't recommend using any BASIC to get started.  They have to learn the whole language, all the syntax, and the basic logic of programming -- this is a considerable investment of time and effort.

And in return, what do they get for that investment?

A skill which isn't going to be recognized as useful in any working environment or classroom anywhere.  Python is just as easy/hard to learn, and at least it's regarded in modern working environments as a viable tool.

The people I would recommend BASIC to is the people who are, as Pete mentioned, pre-year 2000 in programming.  They already have an experience with QBASIC or QB45, or something similar.  The learning curve for them is truncated.  They need to invest little time and effort into picking up the new enhancements (Let's see  SCREEN 12 used to be 256 colors, but now SCREEN _NEWIMAGE(x, y, 32) lets me use 32-bit colors.  Got it!), so they can quickly adapt it to automation of whatever simple tasks they need for personal use.  They're still not going to walk into the office and brag, "Hey Boss!  I wrote this in BASIC!  Let's adapt it into our system as a front-end/back-end/core-process/tool."  But for quick projects and things that they want to toss together quickly, it's a great language for them.

As long as workforces remember that adage about "BASIC programmers are fundamentally broken", then there's not going to be much call for BASIC for youngsters to learn it.

In someways, I feel like it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.  If this was simply called "SIC" programming for "Symbolic Instructional Coding",  job sites wouldn't look down at it so much and then it might have potential to grow and be useful for the younger people.  The only problem with that is the older people who understand BASIC would also never associate "SIC" with "BASIC" and then they'd never join and offer their years of insight and skills in using the language.  It'd be hard to ever promote and get off the ground.

BASIC has a shitty and unearned reputation, and that can't be avoided when talking about trying to grow its use when compared to all the other languages existing and competing for users right now.

I mean honestly, if any of your own children were to come to you and say -- "Hey Pops, what programming language should I learn to try and improve my chances at a job promotion/security/employment?" -- would answer with *ANY* version of BASIC??

When you look at that simple truth, you see why BASIC isn't growing in usage amongst the youngsters compared to other languages.

[Pete]

... But for programs to solve problems that haven't been considered yet, it will take people to come up with the proper architectures, abstractions, whatever. The repetitive aspects of today's computer programming will likely disappear.)

I agree.

I do think in about 6 years, unless there are some major hiccups in society, we will be looking at most of the things we do now being done by AI. The software engineering will still be human, at least for awhile longer, but some day that too will be better handled by machines. I don't think we'll have much to worry over until one of those tin cans starts calling itself "Amazing." When that day comes, all bets are off, so save me a shovel!

I mean think of it this way. No one would ever expect a two year old to fly to the moon and back, but Neil Armstrong was two years old once, and he played himself on the Apollo 11 Mission, too. Why he didn't win an Oscar for that performance is beyond me.

Pete

[PhilOfPerth]

For me (yep, a REAL old-imer) programing is not just about being able to produce a tool to achieve something quicker... it's more a way to challenge my own inventiveness and imagination, to keep the grey-matter at least relevant.

Games like chess, sudoku, or crossword-puzzles don't achieve anything materially, but they' ve persisted for years and probably will for many more, because some people like to "stay alive, stay alert". Sure, we could present our crossword to an AI app and it would solve it in a few nano-seconds, but then what? go and veg out for the rest of the day?

And there are myriad tasks that are better suited to being solved by human imagination than pre-set and pre-used rules.
That's my tuppence worth anyway!

[a740g]

Ok. I am going to say this - the only reason why I like QB64 is the same reason why folks like DOSBox.

[Magdha]

So, I started the other thread about how to get QB64PE out there to try and see where things are going.  I was going to start two other threads "For whom and for what is QB64PE?" and "Succession - QB64PE (we old fogeys aren't getting any healthier)".  So, this thread has got that all covered.

Some (happier, I think) members came up with some ideas, others less helpful and grumbly.  At the time of .org implosion I had been hopeful of the "put in the hands of a professional" route being the way to get QB64 out there.  Ah well, that didn't turn out so well.

I was rather hoping that there'd be ideas to get the message out and help Steve for the future.  But I think that the consensus (well Steve's view anyway) is that nobody really wants it that much.

Eat, code and be merry.  For tomorrow...

[grymmjack]

I'm obsolete then already. I have such low standards and low ambitions I still like Atari 2600 games.