How Many Years Until QB64ers are CALL OBSOLETE?

[vince]

the coolest thing about programming in the 2020s is watching the first generation of programmers going senile

You're just grumpy because they ended your tv reality series. Have you found work since leaving Pawn Stars

Pe..t...e

 

[Pete]

> Try not to be dogmatic about it. Don't live by any fixed "way", just go with the flow.

> Don't stop programming. It keeps old men brains active. (speaking from experience; this is important for us as we get older to keep using those things).

> You will need to get better at breaking down large builds to small tasks that are simply explained in an outline. AI is best when giving very direct, specific guidance. You will need to translate still, if you want to use it to the fullest.

> BUT ALL THIS NONSENSE ASIDE @pete you can continue doing whatever YOU LOVE, F the world and their ways, and no one is going to stop you. QB64PE will be maintained until the lead devs are in the dirt, or unable to type, I'm sure. And even then if you outlive them, you will be able to use the latest version forever and ever

> So either you can ignore the trends, and become "obsolete" - though this even is a matter of perception, and if you have the super power of "I don't care what others think" then you are never EVER obsolete.

@grymmjack

This is a bit funny, because I have to be a bit dogmatic to break down the quotes to help reply. (Otherwise, I'm more of, "My Karma ran over your dogma" type. Cool! That wraps up point #1!

One reason I keep programming is to ward off aging. The other reasons... I've forgotten.

I'm a big F the world and the horoscope it rode in on type. I'd state Bruce Lee had it right when he said, "Be water." I mean maybe if he was born a couple of decades later, it would be bottled water, but still. You know there was that episode of The Twilight Zone where a compulsive gambler died and found himself on the other site, in a giant casino. Everything bet he made he won, but after many days he got so board he asked the owner if he could go to the other place; to which the owner replied, "Sir, this is the other place!" So I guess we are all probably better off with the chaos, uncertainties, etc. in life. My takeaway is try and not get caught up in the many things out there that can bring you down and instead take that chunk of time to search for something better. In short, you can either spend your life building your own Karma, or spend it being caught up in other people's Karma.

So in closing, I hope you agree with every word of my reply, but if not... I DON"T GIVE A ...

Pete

[Pete]

 

[Fifi]

I'm predicting 6, and what I mean by obsolete is picture the day some kid can use Chat GBT, Open AI, whatever, to make a working 8,000 line QB64 program! I make quite a few of those, and it only takes me a couple of months, but imagine having one made in a couple of nano-seconds.  
It really got me thinking today how AI will influence my desire to code. The best, or at least, first thing that jumped out of my head was, "I hope the Rams beat the Bears, tomorrow" Okay, NFL playoffs aside... the second thing that jumped out of my head was, "I'd feel like an idiot taking a few months to code something that I could get a machine to make for me, just as soon as I asked for it." So I guess what comes next is planning on what addition to builds I've made I'd like to see expanded, meaning I'd have to put my software engineers cap on and start making much more sophisticated and integrated aps. I mean OOP was sort of the baby steps in this direction, but I was not an OOP enthusiast. Why? Well because OOP is too rigid and not creative enough for me. AI, however, can and will be much more flexible and especially creativity as expanding its creativity is what will allow it to grow. So I guess I'll think about embracing AI as a tool in the near future, but when it becomes my boss, I think I'll file for my retirement. Steve, get my gold Apple Watch ready!
What do you guys think?
Pete

@Pete,

Rgarding the use of AI in programming, may I suggest you to take a deep look at the Raspberry Pi Fundation page here: https://static.raspberrypi.org/files/abo...-paper.pdf

I find that more than interesting.

Cheers.
Fifi

[Pete]

That Pi article certainly got more than a few raspberries from me! To start, the author really went overboard repeating obvious points in various ways. I mean the whole article could have been written as: Just teach kids coding as one of many methods to help grow their intellects. Hell, if we don't start doing that soon, regardless if it's coding, math, writing skills, whatever, we are going to become a society of complete morons. I know, I know... you need FreeBASIC for that!

Things like this remind me of the Chinese when they invented gun powder. Sure, you could teach your kids kung fu at the local drive in Shaolin Temple, but any idiot with a pistol... Steve, stop staring at my avatar... could take that fool out in two-seconds. In terms of power, the shift in the county was significant. Use guns or die!

So I think in this age the education system needed is similar to what a successful race car driver requires, a great deal of experience using the tool rather than an extensive knowledge of how to build the tool.

What I think is lost on some folks is that most of this AI push is being done for reasons of national defense, and not the crap they spew at us like advancements in pharmaceuticals. Future armies will be made up of AI drones in some kind of Faraday cage. I suppose that's good news for all the fat and lazy kids I see so prevalent in American society today, but I can't see a clear picture of how it will ultimately improve humanity, unless we overcome or subdue the threats that could or will arise, and trust me, the moral and ethical side is always brought up, as it was in that paper, but NEVER prevails. It's jut said to make people think our intentions are pure.

Pete

[Unseen Machine]

AI can only make what you tell it too...For me its a massive help and an even bigger annoyance as it likes to refactor things without me telling it to, goes of on tangents and often forgets rules. Still this will no doubt become less and less a problem when it gets long term memory etc...

As for Qb64 dying...I dont think it will as long as we who use it now figure out a way to make it more enticing to others. I'm really working hard on this aim right now with GDK and how i structure it to maintain the BASIC ethos whilst providing massive power with a few simple commands. 

I push a lot on suggesting people work on synchronising their libs so that they all work together...but it falls on deaf ears and as such nothing is homogeneous. I'd happily mod my stuff to fit an approved GENERIC set of UDTS and commands if such a thing where to be made and im sure others would follow suit. This would lead to the new Libs feature really being useful as they'd all work together...but what do i know? 

Unseen

[Kernelpanic]

It really got me thinking today how AI will influence my desire to code. The best, or at least, first thing that jumped out of my head was, "I hope the Rams beat the Bears, tomorrow" Okay, NFL playoffs aside... the second thing that jumped out of my head was, "I'd feel like an idiot taking a few months to code something that I could get a machine to make for me, just as soon as I asked for it."

AI is simply another tool in the ongoing process of technological advancement. The correctness of programs "developed" by AI can ultimately only be recognized or assessed by someone with profound knowledge of the purpose for which the program was created. Those who lack programming knowledge cannot evaluate the quality of an AI program.

AI is not a danger in the hands of people who understand that it is a machine, in the hands of people with a solid general knowledge, and who are willing to question things. In the hands of those who idolize AI, it becomes a threat.

There are books on this topic that were written over 40 years ago but are as relevant today as if they were written yesterday. And there is even a good film (there are others as well) on this subject that shows what can happen when an AI machine is given the power of life and death.

[Pete]

AI has me worried like a prisoner on Pride day. I don't value a future of being ostracized by a machine. What's that Steve, you say you already own a blender that can out code Pete! Not that kind of Osterizer, Steve! 

You know some guy, a while back, got laughed out of a lecture hall trying to sell his scientific audience on the use of x-ray lithography to improve transistors so chips could be more powerful. Well it turned out he was spot on, and that tech is used today. So far, we keep finding ways of improving computational abilities, and the money we are throwing at it is absolutely obscene. If we do get tot eh point a machine believes it is alive, it will probably also be capable of working out a way to preserve that life. My hunch making friends with humans will not be its first and final choice in that pursuit. 

Pete

 - My Dell Inspiron stopped working when it identified as non-binary.

[hsiangch_ong]

I personally wouldn't try to drag a new programmer into learning any version of BASIC nowadays.  It's honestly a dead-end street.  Can you imagine writing that down on any modern resume and submitting it?   

i personally wouldn't recommend anybody.  to learn python nowadays.  it's increasingly becoming a waste.  "what about version 4?"  keeps being asked increasingly.  but maybe i'm naive.  see what happens to rust.  because apparently this is being taught in some universities.  some programmers are coming up able to work in rust.  cannot obligate them to learn c++ instead.  like the back of the hand.

part of the "taboo" is that m$ eventually covered most.  if not all of basic.  but it wasn't destined to be controlled completely.  by the original authors of the language.  whose company are still trying to sell true basic.

i have discovered in a few months.  basic and lisp are alike.  it's just not working for the young people.  after using a language which has easy access to strings.  and not as strong with other dynamic data structures.  involving pointers, not making it easier for the programmer to manage it.  then lisp seems to be arcane.  must try to do things with lists most of the time.  racket is an awesome product imho.  but i think using "dr.racket."  could cause some people to fall into a hole.  "yeah i could do those cute graphics.  but how to do it in my game program?"  this comes from running one of the tutorials.

i don't have a lot of faith.  that a.i. would make programmers' lives easier.  it promises instead.  to make programmers lazier.

Ok. I am going to say this - the only reason why I like QB64 is the same reason why folks like DOSBox.

you said it straight on.  "music is my mistress.  i don't like complications.  leave it to what the music demands and i try to do my best."  this from a voice clip.  in a certain electronica hip-hop-like song.  go retro.

---

As for Qb64 dying...I dont think it will as long as we who use it now figure out a way to make it more enticing to others. I'm really working hard on this aim right now with GDK and how i structure it to maintain the BASIC ethos whilst providing massive power with a few simple commands. 

i agree with you.  but one good step for it.  is to make qb64 phoenix edition compiled.  and used successfully on freebsd.

this is because linux is becoming.  like an evergrowing unstable star.  being tugged badly in all directions.  producing dissatisfaction from a handful of people.  who want to escape to something.  that is closer to unix.

but maybe it's because they want to handicap themselves that way.  i have to restrain myself.  watching someone else writing about his hatred for "systemd".  or something else like that.  who never used m$ products.  never used ms-dos, windows, quickbasic.  i fell into this hole in another forum i belonged to a few years ago.  it's difficult to sell a derrivative of a commercial product.  to other people highly suspicious.  of the company that made that product.  especially if it's m$ and what has been done to windows.  since it stopped being merely a shell of ms-dos.

[Pete]

I'm surprised you didn't recommend Fig BASIC.

I also never understood why you jumped aboard the S.S. Python when the rest of us were having a grand ol' time on Galleon's Island. SDL or OpenGL? Hint: Always go with the one with the bigger coconuts.

I really thought C/C++ would last a long time, recalling the Tootsie Roll jingle, but alas, some bullshit started a couple of years back about the language having security flaws in it and the 'industry' became weary of C programs. Also, Rob, if he could have had a do-over, would have translated QB64 to JavaScript. We would have had the ability, back then and now, to make Android apps if that actually happened. Since I fiddle with web based stuff occasionally, I have used JavaScript and except for the dame brackets up the ASCII I can't say that I hate it as much as I hate Python, C, Free(not really)BASIC, or any of the other non-English speaking programming languages.

You know personally, after all these years, I still haven't figured out why in the hell I like coding so much. I mean if it were drawing cartoons, I'd much rather tell an AI to make Sam, Bugs, and have Sam put 100 rounds in Bug's ASCII while running across the Prairie on a hot sunny day. The old school method of drawing 500 flip pages to accomplish this, by hand, would not appeal to me. Also, I'd like the finished product, in this case the cartoon, better than the experience of producing it. I'm just the exact opposite when it comes to coding, and I don't have a dang clue as to why. So in some respects, AI is poised to suck the fun out of it for the old me, and make it so I have to reinvent the old me when I'm an even older me. Well I guess we'll have to wait 6 or so years to see how that pans out. That's all folks. I have to make some overseas calls on my coconut phone while the rates are still low.

Pete